Why Advisors Still Don’t Use Their CRM

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RJ Malyk: [00:00:00] Welcome to Beacon 1% Better Every Day with Chip Kispurt, founder of Beacon Strategies. This podcast is all about challenging the norms of wealth management and empowering professionals to make continuous progress and always be curious. Chip knows firsthand how small, consistent improvements can lead to big breakthroughs, and that’s what we’re focused on here: helping you get 1% better every day.

We’ll dive into conversations with industry professionals, share actionable strategies, and explore the mindset needed to overcome industry challenges and create lasting change. Let’s be curious, push beyond what’s always been done, and uncover better ways together.

RJ Malyk: Welcome to the Beacon 1% Better Everyday Podcast with Chip Kispert.

Today Chip sits down with Willie Mullen, senior vice president of sales at [00:01:00] Wealthbox, the highest rated, fastest growing CRM in wealth management, and the platform trusted by more than 25,000 advisors across the country. Willie and Chip are going to talk about the evolution of CRM in wealth management, where AI is really headed, and the people and firms worth paying attention to right now.

And it’s my pleasure to introduce our host, Chip Kispert. Chip, take it away.

Chip Kispert: RJ, thanks for that slick introduction. I appreciate that I am so excited to have Willie on, on today. Willie, welcome.

Willie Mullen: Thanks for having me, Chip. Excited to be here.

Chip Kispert: You know, you guys have… Are growing like an absolute rocket ship right now.

And, um, one of the things that I always like to, to start with is, so take it back to the beginning, right? What… So let’s start with you first, and then let’s go [00:02:00] into Wealthbox, right? So what brought you to wealth management or wealth tech? And then let’s go into how, you know, how did you come to be at, at Wealthbox?

Willie Mullen: Yeah, I’m happy to, uh, happy to talk about the rocket shot, rocket ship that you, you alluded to. Certainly, uh, it’s been an enjoyable first year for me. So my background has always been in high growth software. I’ve worked in a couple startups, a few scale-ups, two IPOs, really just companies that are trying to do something meaningful in their respective space.

And so I had a chance to meet the Wealthbox team in the early part of last year, and what I saw in them was a leadership team that was genuinely excited about building something that the cu- their customers really love, clearly a product that was winning in the market, and most importantly, market signals that the best was, was, you know, yet, yet to come, right?

We were just getting started. And so frankly, that made it pretty [00:03:00] easy for me, uh, to, to say yes. And, um, yeah, I’ll be honest with you, Chip, I, I probably didn’t think enough about the transition into wealth tech and wealth management as a space, this is my first time in this space, when I joined Wealthbox.

And I, I obviously knew who we’d be selling to. Um, I knew customers of Wealthbox through my personal network. I knew the product, uh, as best I could, but I don’t think I really fully appreciated what I was, what I was walking into.

Chip Kispert: So you’ve been drinking from a fire hose.

Willie Mullen: Yeah.

Chip Kispert: Learning the product, learning the wealth management business, all of it.

Willie Mullen: Yeah. It’s been, um… Like four days into my tenure at Wealthbox, I went to a really large conference, uh, with one of our biggest partners, and I was like, “What did I get myself into here?” You know, I will say what surprised me most about this journey that I’ve been on so far is really how connected the industry is, whether it’s the relationships between broker-dealers and their OSJs or, uh, what an RIA aggregator [00:04:00] is and why they exist, I think certainly where products like ours fit into a broader firm’s tech stack.

And they, they kinda at first felt like- individual things for me to learn, asking a lot of questions of my team, doing a lot of work in Claude myself, trying to, you know, give myself analogies to learn the industry. But over the last couple months it’s really crystallized that this is just all pieces for one big puzzle, one big ecosystem.

And once that started to click for me, I was- I’ve become really hooked, frankly. I, I love puzzles. It’s something I do in my spare time with my kids. And so this market really has that same pull for me, and a year in, I, I like to think I’m still kind of turning over pieces every day.

Chip Kispert: That’s awesome. Well, it’s interesting, ’cause I’ve been in this business over 30 years, and I’m still turning o- over pieces every day.

Willie Mullen: That doesn’t make me feel much better, but, uh , but you know, at least I’m not alone.

Chip Kispert: Uh, absolutely. Absolutely. I love that, those, that story and, and how you’re growing into [00:05:00] Wealthbox. Terrific stuff. Um, but one of the reasons you’re on the show is you won the Mary Blackburn Partner Challenge, and, um, your firm, um, by, by winning that, uh, gets on the show.

And I’d love to tell you, have you tell us a little bit about, um, the foundation that you donated to.

Willie Mullen: Yeah. The, the organization is called Ignite Promise, and, uh, the connection I have is deeply personal for me and for my family. Um, we had someone come really close to near homelessness, and that’s what Ignite does.

They serve youth experiencing homelessness in the Chicago area, which is where I’m from. And through that experience we found it, we saw a great organization with phenomenal leadership really delivering great outcomes for young people at a, at a really important stage in life. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it’s become our family’s cause.

We’ve invested some real time and resources with [00:06:00] the organization. We’ve brought it to our network. We’re bringing it to your network today, which I’m super excited about. Uh, and so many of our friends and family have supported it. So when we won the challenge, Wealthbox, uh, there was no debate for me where it was going, and I got the full support of our, our company when we, when I made that nomination.

Chip Kispert: That’s terrific. That’s terrific. Sounds like they’re doing great work in the Chicago area. Um, and they will get a call-out, um, to this podcast, so, well, that’s a great choice. Um, one of the things … So I’m gonna transition a little bit from that. Um, it’s interesting because over the years in our consulting practice, uh, we see CRMs having been really that kinda one tech investment priority, and everything builds off of that.

How– tell me more about how you think about that today.

Willie Mullen: Look, I, I think it’s very much a, [00:07:00] uh, ongoing conversation right now, right? What is the, what is the hub? Where, where do we start in our, our day? Uh, and we continue to believe that CRM can and should be that place. And, you know, one of the things we hear a lot is that CRM isn’t wildly adopted, right?

Or used. Of course, al- everyone has a CRM, but the data tells us that less than fifty percent of users are using most of their CRM every day. What we see in our customers is upwards of, of ninety percent, and we think it’s because, and we believe, you know, based on what we hear from customers, that a lot of times an investment was made, the box was checked, and advisors really start, and their teams start working around a tool like a CRM that’s intended to be, you know, your, your starting place each day.

And, you know, there’s a lot of disfa- satisfaction in the market, and we believe that that disfa- satisfaction stems from the fact that CRM isn’t doing enough of the work [00:08:00] for advisors themselves. And so that’s, that’s very much where we’re headed and, and continue to believe that we can be, you know, the, the default interface for an advisor and their team every single day.

Chip Kispert: Where do you see CRM going?

Willie Mullen: It’s a great question. So, uh, one of the things that we talk a lot about internally is how do we evolve CRM from a system of record into a system of action. One that automatically closes the loop on what’s happened, what’s outstanding, what’s next, what’s the audit and compliance trail required.

And one of the things that we’re really consistent with in our approach from day one in the product is we want to get there by building a product that advisors and their teams actually want to use every day to run their business, and that’s highly intuitive. Something that’s designed and integrated with their ecosystem.

I think [00:09:00] a huge word for us is collaboration, right? Collaborative by default, and really accessible wherever someone needs to be working, whether it’s in front of their phone, whether it’s in front of their computer, or potentially whether it’s, you know, when they’re on the go in their car. And so we’re, we’re continuing to think about how do we make sure that everything inside of Wealthbox not only accomplishes the core fundamental mission of CRM, but does so in a way that’s action-forward and more productive and es- essentially making the advisors and teams using Wealthbox faster every day

Chip Kispert: That’s fascinating.

You know, it, it’s, it’s interesting ’cause we found some source information on that and how you guys are kind of running in the face of traditional CRM. Um, you’re growing, and I think they’re being challenged to, to upgrade what they’re doing, and I, I believe we’re looking, they’re a bit slow on that process at, at this point.[00:10:00]

So that’s fascinating to me. Um, I’m also really interested in how really firms are prioritizing that, their budgets and their time. 90%, that’s a huge number.

Willie Mullen: Yeah. Well, what, what it comes back to is if you deliver a product that works the way it’s intended to work, and you do it in a way in which it’s enjoyable for the end user, it’s somewhat social in nature, very collaborative, um, it becomes easier and easier to find people wanting to use the, the tech, whatever the tech may be, right?

Uh, it’s kind of the most core principle of technologies. We want it … We, we all use the technology the most that we en- get the most joy out of using. So if we can create, uh, an experience every day for an advisor or a CSA to log in and say, “Okay, this is gonna help me go faster. It’s gonna make me more productive.

It’s gonna give me better visibility into what’s [00:11:00] happening across the entire firm. It’s integrated with the things that I’m already … other tools that I need to use every day, and it’s innovating,” to your point, uh, rapidly, that becomes a, a pretty s- compelling reason to draw a user into, uh, using our platform every day.

Chip Kispert: That’s pretty heady stuff, right? So you got momentum You got more money coming in from revenue. So what are you doing with that opportunity?

Willie Mullen: Developing, uh, a lot. Developing a lot of product right now. Yeah. Um, yeah, uh, look, anyone who follows our blog or us on social or follows our company in the news will, will see that our pace of innovation is as strong as it’s ever been, uh, in the 12-plus year history of Wealthbox, and that’s not an accident.

Um, we view the growth that has happened over the years for Wealthbox and the [00:12:00] momentum in the market as a strong signal that we are consistently delivering a product that people want to use every day and want us, want to continue to innovate and, and spend more time inside of. So what we’re thinking a lot about is, what are the things that typically our customers are doing outside of Wealthbox that we can con- we can drive into Wealthbox to get more and more, uh, usage?

At the same time, I think it’s really important, we never want to take our eye off of the core fundamental, uh, problems that we’re, we exist to solve. And so that balancing act of building for the future while also, you know, delivering and continue to deliver great product for the thousands and thousands of people that are familiar with Wealthbox and using it every day is, is a balancing act that our team, uh, is working really hard to, to strike.

And I think we’re doing a really good job of it. I’m super proud of the work that I’ve seen from our product organization, our engineering team, uh, uh, to, to make that balance happen, ’cause I think it can be very difficult, right? How do we, how do [00:13:00] we determine what we build, not only for what our customers expect us to do today, but where they’re gonna expect the product to go in the future?

And something I’ve been saying a lot internally is, you know, I see the product roadmap, and it feels like we’re s- we’re, uh, helping our customers sort of skate to where the puck is going a little bit, to use the sports analogy. Um, and, uh, and, and, and but without doing that, without them feeling like they got left behind.

Chip Kispert: Got it. Got it. So y’all launched in June custom objects.

Willie Mullen: Yeah.

Chip Kispert: Right? What problem is that solving?

Willie Mullen: Yeah. That goes back to something I, I said earlier about looking at the broader ecosystem that we fit in, that wealth managers face every day or have, you know, are a part of every day. And there are- Data points, there are products that they use that maybe don’t have a native integration [00:14:00] inside of Wealthbox or an integration that was built into Wealthbox by a third party.

Maybe it’s, it’s really to allow you to, you know, bring your own solution for whatever it might be inside of Wealthbox, so that you can take advantage of all of the workflow functionality and the AI functionality inside the product, but maybe do it on an object or a part of your business that wouldn’t traditionally flow into a wealth management CRM.

So if that’s… That might be heady, but Chip, uh, if you remember, there was a, uh, product in the ’90s called Flex Tape. Their, uh, TV commercial was they would slap it on like a big leaky jug of water, and we’ve, we have a joke going internally that that’s custom objects is the Flex Tape, right? We don’t have a wa- place to put this data, build a custom object, and now you have it.

And what’s been really cool is we, we said we launched that in, in June, and since then we’ve already launched three different iterations of how the custom object, uh, the component of Wealthbox can now interface and [00:15:00] interact with other parts of Wealthbox. Our AI assistant can now read and write automatically to custom objects.

Our AI note taker can pull prep and follow-up directly to and from custom objects. So again, if you have an insurance policy or some data structure that maybe doesn’t naturally fit inside of a CRM categorically, now you can bring it in and get the full power of Wealthbox to support and promote the rest of the work that goes alongside it.

Chip Kispert: That’s great. You guys are working as fast as Anthropic is.

Willie Mullen: Well, they’re hard to keep up with, uh, that’s for sure. But… And look, they’re making us work f- they’re, they’re helping us work a lot faster, that, that’s for sure. And, you know, uh, credit again to our engineering and, and product teams, our co-founders.

From the, uh, from the get-go of me joining the organization, and I know it predates me, they have, uh, been very adamant on the, you know, the AI wave has, is coming, and we were well equipped as an engineering and product org to take advantage of that right away. And from [00:16:00] the time that Opus launched, and I think that was like the day after Thanksgiving last year, uh, our team has been running at it, embracing it.

I think our CTO might have a T-shirt that says, you know, “Spend more tokens.” Like, we are all in on using AI to build the best products we can, uh, ’cause we know that’s what the market is, uh, is asking for right now.

Chip Kispert: Yeah. It’s interesting is we’re, we’re getting a lot of, uh- RIAs and broker-dealers coming to us and saying, “Hey, um, we’ve been here.

How do we go More of an AI forward strategy. Um, it’s fascinating. Hey, one thing I want to know, you guys brought a huge customer on, uh, earlier this year, Gradient Financial Group. What a win

Willie Mullen: for that. Yeah, that was. That was an exciting, uh, opportunity, uh, for us. Um, it was the first real enterprise opportunity that I had a chance to work with.

What’s been great is there’s been many more, uh, since then, and that’s, that’s a area of [00:17:00] excitement for us in the business. Uh, but and that was a, uh, that was a product of a failed implementation of a very well-known enterprise CRM, uh, which is a very common story for us and, uh, something that we look forward to seeing many more of those in the market come our way.

Chip Kispert: That’s your niche, right?

Willie Mullen: You know what? It’s, uh, it’s, it’s great, um, this competitive space that we’re in, uh, every single day, and it’s getting more and more competitive. We do not take it for granted. I certainly don’t. I know you can… I can tell you my team knows that I don’t. I’m constantly talking about what’s happening in the market and where, how we need to be upleveling our approach.

Um, but, but we like our chances.

Chip Kispert: Every single one of my conversations is going what, along the lines you’re talking about.

Willie Mullen: Question on that real fast. You, the AI, I, I’m curious, like you, you mentioned everybody’s asking about where AI’s going and what, what are, what, what’s your latest point of view on that?

I, I’ll share with you, with you mine too.

Chip Kispert: Yeah, I’d love that. Um, so there are a [00:18:00] couple things there. One, are firms are looking at what I would call their traditional legacy platforms. For the most part, they don’t wanna get behind the curve, so there’s a little bit of panic settling in right now. And, you know, all of our s- spring roundtables touched on this.

Everybody’s curious. Um, everybody is beyond curious, let’s put it that way. Um, but it’s interesting too because I fi- what I’m hearing are a lot of business executives, CEOs, COOs, I can go down the list, CCOs, and they’re, they’re like, “AI’s gonna solve this. AI’s gonna solve this.” And yet they don’t know a lot about AI.

I find it fascinating. Um, but there is absolutely the momentum, um, to go and explore those firms that are utilizing AI to improve their processes, [00:19:00] to make them more efficient and faster processing, give the customer a better user experience. I can go down the list.

Willie Mullen: Yeah. It’s fascinating, right? There’s, like, an urgency and an excitement, uh, that’s palpable, for sure.

You know, one of the things that, um, we’re thinking a lot about is a lot of conversation right now is about how AI can empower the individual.

Chip Kispert: Mm-hmm

Willie Mullen: And that’s very real, right? I mean, think about the work we’re, you and I are probably doing every day. For a moment, let’s, let’s talk about what an advisory firm really is.

It’s a coordination of people, right? Working side by side. Uh, an advisor, a CSA, an ops person, and the work only works when those people are doing it together, right? And so to me, and to, to us, that collaboration isn’t going away just because AI showed up. It’s frankly gonna become more valuable. And [00:20:00] the firms that win in the AI space, they won’t just have tools, they’ll have AI inside of a collaborative workspace where everything they’re doing already is taking place.

And to me, that’s the difference of, like, what AI helping one person versus AI making the whole practice or ultimately making a better client experience. And that’s really where our, what we believe and what, what we’re doing at Wealthbox is we’re putting AI into that foundation that’s been battle tested for the last decade plus.

Um, we know we’ve got a collaborative workspace that people love, that teams love using, and now we’re building AI directly into it, and it didn’t need to, you know, come from the outside.

Chip Kispert: That’s awesome. So with that, let me add an, a question back to you is What do you see the trends being now?

Willie Mullen: I think, um, in terms of AI, I think there’s a lot of talk about automation [00:21:00] first and foremost, right?

How do we capture information automatically and then disperse that information into the different systems or take different actions? I think something you’ll see from our product team very shortly is an, a, a pretty large enhancement to an agentic experience inside of Wealthbox. Um, one that I wouldn’t sleep on is the compliance and audit trail capabilities around AI.

That’s an area we’re getting a lot of questions in some of those large enterprise engagements as well. I think that kind of helps people bridge the gap from we’re curious to we’re actually doing it, is that feeling safe that the partner they’re picking has trust, has experience in the market, has a compliance posture that already stands up and now is adding AI into that versus potentially coming in with, you know, uh, brand new to the space.

And so, um, I think those are, those are probably the two that I’m seeing the most right now [00:22:00] in live conversations. But, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s hard to say ’cause, like, we could hang up this call and, like, uh, tomorrow something could happen and there’d be a new trend, you know? And that’s how fast things are, are moving around us and in, in the, the entire space.

Chip Kispert: I can’t believe how fast they’re moving, quite honestly. Um, it’s, it’s incredible. So a non-Wealthbox, non-Willy question, but it is a Willy question. In your year, you’ve, you’ve gotten to look at a lot of different firms, um, and a lot of different people within the industry. Who are two or three companies or people, um, that you keep track of and they’re doing work that you believe is innovative, thoughtful, and people should keep track of what they’re doing?

Willie Mullen: It’s hard to pick truthfully because there, there, to your point, there’s a lot, uh, there’s a lot of great content, a lot of people who’ve helped [00:23:00] me learn, so thank you to all of you out there. Um, but a few, a few names come to mind. Chris Moore recently spoke on a panel about her firm’s move from Salesforce to Wealthbox, and she said something that really stuck with me.

Um, she said that, “CRM migrations aren’t just technology changes, they are operating model decisions.” And I heard that and I was like, “That is the right lens.” And it’s rare to hear a practitioner articulate it that clearly. I’m gonna steal that, uh, so thank you, Chris. And, uh, and, and to my opinion, the, like, the world should be following people who think like that.

And, uh, the second one I’ll, I’ll c- connect this personally. Chip, uh, I had a chance to meet them through you at the round table, and that’s Mercer Advisors. And what I told them after my meeting with them or, or after meeting them is, and I- I’m a client of theirs, full disclosure. I said, “They, they’ve built something that feels really boutique from the outside, but runs like a machine on the inside.”

[00:24:00] And that operational scale and growth without sacrificing the, the client experience, like, in an industry where everyone is constantly asking, “How do we grow without losing what made us great?” I think they’ve done a really nice job with that, and I’m speaking of that firsthand.

Chip Kispert: Yeah. It’s amazing how they’re growing too.

Uh, like-

Willie Mullen: Yeah …

Chip Kispert: who they brought. They brought Abby in from a marketing standpoint. They brought a number of tech people. They’re, they’re growing like a weed. It’s incredible. Um, thank you. That was awesome. I appreciate that. So as we wrap the show with you, we like to give you 90 seconds for the Beacon 1% Better Every Day Flash.

And that is giving you the mic, and I just listen. So I hand the mic to

Willie Mullen: you. Well, first of all, as you saw during the Mary Blackburn challenge, giving me the mic is not necessarily the best idea. But no, here, here’s my message, is keep innovating. I have been in this [00:25:00] industry for just one year, and I’ll tell you what I’ve seen from day one: rapid acceleration.

Technology companies are building faster than ever before. RIAs are adjusting their business models and operating models, to your point, on the fly, not in planning cycles, but in real time. And admittedly, I’d heard that the financial industry can move slowly, and I have not experienced that one day. I’m waiting for it to slow down, right?

Uh, actually, no, I, I love the pace. Um, so my message is simple. Like, the firms paying attention right now, the ones leaning in, the ones willing to change how they operate and sort of embrace it, they’re building an advantage that really compounds, so keep going. And I think this industry is moving extremely fast, potentially faster than some people think, and the ones who are pushing it are the reasons why.

And so I’m super grateful for everyone who’s out there every day in the market talking about the speed at [00:26:00] which it’s innovating, talking about the, the new products that are coming to market, talking about the investments they’re making in their own businesses, and how they’re overhauling strategy. I mean, it’s, it’s just raising the bar for all of us.

Chip Kispert: Willie, I c- I’ve been in the business 30 years, which is now dating myself. Um, but, um,

Willie Mullen: I’ve never

Chip Kispert: seen it

Willie Mullen: move this fast. And this pace,

Chip Kispert: it is unbelievable, and I think the best things are, are to come. I loved your comments there. I,

Willie Mullen: I agree with every

Chip Kispert: single one of them.

Willie Mullen: So, uh, Willie,

Chip Kispert: thank you for being on the show.

We appreciate that. Um, if for anybody who wants to learn a little bit more about Wealthbox or connect with you directly, where should they go?

Willie Mullen: Wealthbox.com is always a great starting place. Definitely follow us on LinkedIn. Connect with me on LinkedIn, would love to meet more folks in your network, more, some of your listeners, folks who I haven’t had a chance to meet.

Uh, so yeah, LinkedIn, uh, email, [00:27:00] website, those would be the best places.

Chip Kispert: That’s terrific. Again, Willie, thank you, and, uh, grateful for you making the time to be on the show.

Willie Mullen: Thank you so much for having me. Great catching up.

Chip Kispert: RJ, that was a cool show. What a great set of topics and conversation we just had with Willie.

RJ Malyk: Lot of energy, but not just with Willie, but just your entire industry. There seems to be a lot of energy, and a word that keeps jumping out in all these different podcasts, and I know Willie said it a couple times, is the word collaboration. And one thing that stood out is he wants to use AI and collaborate with his team and not replace, and I thought that, that really stood out to me.

I think that’s, that’s pretty cool.

Chip Kispert: You know, I, I s- spot on. You’re spot on because it’s not like, um, AI is lessening the work per se, but what it is allowing are people’s [00:28:00] ideas to germinate faster.

RJ Malyk: Mm.

Chip Kispert: Um, I took a couple of key quotes that, that he shared with us that I loved, honestly. Uh, first one was we, we evolve CRM from a system of record into a system of action.

RJ Malyk: Interesting.

Chip Kispert: That’s big.

RJ Malyk: Yeah.

Chip Kispert: That is really big. This one I, I loved was CRM migrations aren’t just technology changes, they’re operating model decisions. That statement in and of itself is huge. Uh, it just… I could… That one I, I really, I, like, in the back of my head, I’m like, “Oh, you hit it there.” That was, that was, that was great.

And then, you know, I loved his keep innovating. Um, it was, I thought it was pretty cool, uh, and because that’s where the industry’s going. And, you know, as you and I have talked about numerous times, uh, we are in a track meet, [00:29:00] and keeping up is, uh, a challenge because all these new ideas that are coming down the pipe and, and, uh, that are helping to elevate efficiencies, uh- People’s jobs.

It’s just mind-boggling at this point.

RJ Malyk: Excellent. Excellent.

Chip Kispert: All right. It’s time to, to wrap. And, uh, to quote Ted Lasso, “Be curious, not judgmental.” This is Chip Kispert wishing you well until our next edition of the Beacon One Percent Better Every Day podcast.

RJ Malyk: And as always, Chip, we need to add in a shout-out, as this podcast is brought to you by Beacon Strategies, LLC, the go-to resource for roundtables, consulting, and services that support wealth management firms and their providers.

If you need some industry perspective or help, please visit beaconstrategiesllc.com. And thank you for listening to the Beacon One Percent Better Every Day podcast. We ask you to share this podcast, rate it, and leave a review, [00:30:00] because this actually helps others find the podcast. Again, thank you for listening.

And for Chip, and everyone at Beacon Strategies, I’m R.J. Malyk, and we look forward to you joining us for our next Beacon One Percent Better Every Day podcast.

Willie Mullen: Thanks for joining us on Beacon’s 1%

RJ Malyk: Better Every Day podcast. Be sure to hit that follow button so you never miss an episode, and stay up to date with Chip and his friends’ latest insights and strategies.

If you want to learn more about Beacon Strategies or get in touch, visit us at beaconstrategiesllc.com. Remember, progress starts with just 1% every day. Let’s keep challenging ourselves to be curious and grow. The information covered and posted represents the views and opinions of the guest and does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of Beacon Strategies.

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